From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Tue Oct 17 09:06:30 2000 Received: from kremlin.liberate.com (kremlin.liberate.com [216.221.226.81]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA32055 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:06:30 -0700 Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by kremlin.liberate.com (8.11.0/8.11.0/LIBERATE-1.9) with SMTP id e9HG4nK12437 for ; Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:04:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001017090359.00c52b40@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:04:07 -0700 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Bigi] testing 1 2 3 From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 13 11:39:19 2000 Received: from cliff.liberate.com (pix147.liberate.com [216.221.224.147]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA13460 for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:39:19 -0800 Received: from vindaloo (vindaloo.liberate.com [172.22.4.108]) by cliff.liberate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23AC83428B for ; Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:39:15 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001113113849.02f9aef0@sunsims.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@sunsims.liberate.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 13 Nov 2000 11:40:17 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Bigi] quick note Wow! I'm thrilled a couple people have joined, I wanted to warn everyone who didn't know that I'm still getting some list admin details right before I do a public annoucement. So it may be quiet for a few more days. My sincere thanks to y'all for your patience. Cheers, Joe Decker (joe@bi.org, list admin) -- Joe Decker +1 650 701 5299 Keeper of the Count joe.decker@liberate.com Liberate Technologies http://alumni.caltech.edu/~decker/ From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Wed Nov 15 15:42:29 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f179.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.179]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01298 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:42:29 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:41:59 -0800 Received: from 64.209.173.120 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:41:58 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.209.173.120] From: "Thomas Leavitt" To: bigi@commonhouse.net Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:41:58 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2000 23:41:59.0095 (UTC) FILETIME=[A5583C70:01C04F5D] Subject: [Bigi] Hi. Thomas checking in... www.internetmanifesto.org eating a jello pudding snack at work going to poly dinner tonight with my significant other Hi Joe. :) love and blessings from Santa Cruz thomas _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Wed Nov 15 15:48:44 2000 Received: from mailhub.replaytv.net (mail.replaytv.net [64.14.5.208]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA01367 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:48:44 -0800 Received: from replaytv.net by thingee ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 23:48:13 GMT Received: (from slee@localhost) by thingee (8.9.3/8.9.3) id PAA03172; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:48:10 -0800 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:48:09 -0800 From: Shannon Lee To: Thomas Leavitt Cc: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: Re: [Bigi] Hi. Message-ID: <20001115154807.A3162@thingee.replaytv.net> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from thomasleavitt@hotmail.com on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:41:58PM -0800 thomas, joe. i was wondering who'd break the ice ;) on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:41:58PM -0800, T = "Thomas Leavitt" asserted: T> Thomas checking in... T> T> www.internetmanifesto.org T> T> eating a jello pudding snack at work T> T> going to poly dinner tonight with my significant other T> T> Hi Joe. :) T> T> love and blessings from Santa Cruz T> T> thomas T> _________________________________________________________________________ T> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. T> T> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at T> http://profiles.msn.com. T> T> T> _______________________________________________ T> Bigi mailing list T> Bigi@commonhouse.net T> http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi -- shannon lee -- shannon@scatter.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I love you, not only for what you are, but for what I am when I am with you. -- Roy Croft From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Wed Nov 15 16:01:49 2000 Received: from cliff.liberate.com (pix147.liberate.com [216.221.224.147]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01503 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:01:49 -0800 Received: from vindaloo (vindaloo.liberate.com [172.22.4.108]) by cliff.liberate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA5AA345F7 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:01:42 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001115155355.00d8f100@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:02:47 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Subject: Re: [Bigi] Hi. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:41 PM 11/15/00 -0800, Thomas Leavitt wrote: >Thomas checking in... Hi Thomas! >going to poly dinner tonight with my significant other I was thinking about that, but I'm instead going to see Fritz Klein speak at the Billy de Frank center in San Jose, which conflicts. Meanwhile, Hi everyone! I'm Joe Decker, and I started this list. We've got about 15 subscribers and are adding a couple an hour at present. I'm sure that that will change over time, please feel free to pass along list information to friends, groups, mailing lists, etc., where you think there might be interested folk. Anyone interested in starting off with some introductions? I'm a 39-yo bi male living in San Jose, California. I've been out as bisexual for about five or six years. I'm polyamorous, and have a couple of partners, one of whom I'm married to and have been for about 16 years. I'm a computer geek, I do a landscape photography in my spare time, when I have any. Again, welcome! --Joe -- Joe joe@bi.org; joe@polychromatic.com; etc. Joe's Secret Life: http://bi.org/~joe/ Poly-Friendly Pros: http://www.polychromatic.com/pfp/ Poly-Related Book Reviews: http://www.polychromatic.com/ From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Wed Nov 15 16:02:29 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f17.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.17]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA01551 for ; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:02:28 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:01:58 -0800 Received: from 64.209.173.120 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 00:01:57 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.209.173.120] From: "Thomas Leavitt" To: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: Re: [Bigi] Hi. Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 16:01:57 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 16 Nov 2000 00:01:58.0341 (UTC) FILETIME=[7026A750:01C04F60] Hi Shannon! :) read any good books lately? I'm reading the SF novel I picked up at Printers Inc. god what was I there for? gack my mind is going Tropic of Creation, Kay Kenyon topical discussion: so, my s/o is like, "Guys don't make me jealous, girls do, I can't help it." personally, I've never been more than mildly jealous, i don't get the whole possessiveness thing, so I don't get it... anyway, so, have y'all gotten that from your partners? (of either gender) luv n blessins' in stuff, Thomas >From: Shannon Lee >To: Thomas Leavitt >CC: bigi@commonhouse.net >Subject: Re: [Bigi] Hi. >Date: Wed, 15 Nov 2000 15:48:09 -0800 > >thomas, joe. > >i was wondering who'd break the ice ;) > >on Wed, Nov 15, 2000 at 03:41:58PM -0800, T = "Thomas Leavitt" asserted: >T> Thomas checking in... >T> >T> www.internetmanifesto.org >T> >T> eating a jello pudding snack at work >T> >T> going to poly dinner tonight with my significant other >T> >T> Hi Joe. :) >T> >T> love and blessings from Santa Cruz >T> >T> thomas >T> >_________________________________________________________________________ >T> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. >T> >T> Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at >T> http://profiles.msn.com. >T> >T> >T> _______________________________________________ >T> Bigi mailing list >T> Bigi@commonhouse.net >T> http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > >-- > shannon lee -- shannon@scatter.com >---------------------------------------------------------------------- >I love you, not only for what you are, but for what I am when I am with >you. > -- Roy Croft _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Thu Nov 16 20:58:04 2000 Received: from smtp06.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA09227 for ; Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:58:03 -0800 Received: (qmail 12496 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2000 04:41:04 -0000 Received: from 209-239-198-53.oak.jps.net (HELO ADSL.Pacbell.net) ([209.239.198.53]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.36 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 17 Nov 2000 04:41:04 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001116203424.007dc100@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: thaddeus@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Thu, 16 Nov 2000 20:34:24 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Thadd Liszkowski Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Bigi] Intro Hey all you bi guys out there! My name is Thadd. I'm 32, work in education, enjoy hot tubbing, cycling, and entertaining. I live in Santa Cruz with my female partner. We are both bisexual and non-monogamous, and date together as well as separately. I am looking forwawrd to lively conversation about the reality of being a bisexual man in today's society. Thadd From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Fri Nov 17 09:20:56 2000 Received: from conway.liberate.com (conway.liberate.com [216.221.226.80]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA11128 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:20:55 -0800 Received: by conway.liberate.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 0A8B435982; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:24:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by conway.liberate.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B39632881 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:24:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001117085838.00c90a50@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 09:18:27 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] Intro In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001116203424.007dc100@mail.jps.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Thadd! Welcome! One of the BiGi sort of topics I've been thinking about lately is the coming out process. I'm curious how other people found the experience of coming out as bisexual (if you have), and how that relates to being male. My own experiences as a kid were not very positive. I got some amount of emotional abuse and beatings from other kids when I was a kid, because folks perceived me as queer. For a long time (e.g., my 20s), I'd acquired a fear of coming out from those experiences, and while I was out to my primary partner, discussing my bi leanings with other folk was just something I wasn't comfortable with. About five or six years ago I started really going down the track of coming out, and I've come quite a ways, I think you could fault me for not coming out to my parents, but in many other ways I'm extremely out, to my friends, coworkers, acquaintances, and just random people in my life. I think adults deal better with it than teens, I think I choose who I spend time with more selectively, and I think that time has improved things as well. As far as the impact of being male, I do sometimes think that the gender roles that man are expected to live to today in straight society are more constraining and painful than the expanded gender roles women have won through the efforts of the feminist movement. In many ways I found my emotional desires to be emotionally close to men were more stifled by gender roles than even my sexual ones, in my experience society is poor at allowing men to relate to one another on an emotionally close and intimate level. Anyway, sort of an early-morning blather, I apologize if this isn't going anywhere, or is a bit incoherent. Maybe it's time for coffee. :-) --Joe PS: To all of you who've joined BiGi since my last message, Welcome! --j From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Fri Nov 17 16:55:42 2000 Received: from smtp02.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA13436 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:55:42 -0800 Received: (qmail 7514 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2000 00:55:04 -0000 Received: from 209-239-207-217.oak.jps.net (HELO ADSL.Pacbell.net) ([209.239.207.217]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.32 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Nov 2000 00:55:04 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001117164822.00889ea0@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: thaddeus@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 16:48:22 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Thadd Liszkowski In-Reply-To: <200011172000.MAA11951@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Bigi] Re: coming out process I came out when i was in high school (puberty for me). People thought I was weird, but I had a sound philosophical basis for my belief in bisexuality (that one loves people, not necessarily just their genitalia :), and was fairly well-liked, at least as much as the next high school kid. My parents hated it, especially my mother, who is a (rather normative, unfortunately) psychologist. She kept insisting that I had to "decide" between straight and gay, and was always relieved when my date was a girl :) Slowly she moved into the "It's all right to be gay, you know" phase and finally into the "you don't sleep with children/tie people up/wear women's clothing/want to change your sex, do you?" thing. I've always been more or less non-sexual at work, because I believe that given our puritanical and capitalistic society (protestant work ethic), it's always the safest course regardless of one's identification. Recently, I've been even more careful, since I took a job as a teacher. So I'm more in the closet now than I've ever been, and it's darn uncomfortable! Thadd From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Fri Nov 17 19:00:33 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f62.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.62]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA13870 for ; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:00:33 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:00:02 -0800 Received: from 64.209.173.120 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 03:00:02 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.209.173.120] From: "Thomas Leavitt" To: Bigi@commonhouse.net Date: Fri, 17 Nov 2000 19:00:02 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Nov 2000 03:00:02.0723 (UTC) FILETIME=[A55D7730:01C0510B] Subject: [Bigi] Re: Coming Out Hmm... coming out for me was non-traumatic. It was actually one of those moments where everything comes together, and suddenly a whole bunch of things which never made sense before, now do. Basically, I was sitting upside down on a Greyhound bus (man, those things are evil, impossible to get comfortable in) on my way out to Missouri, thinking back to various events in my life, when the thought floated up out of my sub-conscious: "You're bi-sexual." I was startled, for a moment, examined the thought, turned it around, reflected on my life to date, said, "Damn, now so many things suddenly make sense!" and I was done. Basically, it provided an explanation for a huge number of events and feelings I'd had all through junior and high school (I was eighteen, and had just graduated high school two weeks before). This included crushes on both genders, harassment and fights, etc. and a statistically high percentage of queer people in significant roles in my life... I suspect a lot of people recognized I was queer before I did. Once I'd figured out I was bi, coming out was pretty simple - I just told people. Never got any static. Never had any fear. Helps that my immediate family has no issues with it, and my parents have always had a ton of queer friends (through work, church, and social activities). My first "relationship" was with a guy, in fact. I'm out to everyone in my life but a small fraction of my family that lives in the rural MidWest, including all my co-workers at companies past and present. Anyway, I regard being bi (and poly) as a bonus, because I get to hang out with all these cool, really interesting people. Love and blessings, Thomas _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com. From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sat Nov 18 06:32:56 2000 Received: from conway.liberate.com (conway.liberate.com [216.221.226.80]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA15957 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:32:56 -0800 Received: by conway.liberate.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 6D55A35981; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by conway.liberate.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7819F32881 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:36:27 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001118061403.00c0d180@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:30:28 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] Re: coming out process In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001117164822.00889ea0@mail.jps.net> References: <200011172000.MAA11951@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:48 PM 11/17/00 -0800, Thadd Liszkowski wrote: >I've always been more or less non-sexual at work, because I believe that >given our puritanical and capitalistic society (protestant work ethic), >it's always the safest course regardless of one's identification. Recently, >I've been even more careful, since I took a job as a teacher. Hi Thadd! I don't actually believe that people are allowed to be asexual at work, at least most of the places I've worked. It's not that I'm hit on or am hitting on people, but people expect a certain amount of socializing about what we do on weekends, etc. Maybe they don't need to know about the mind-blowing sex party I was at, but it feels uncomfortable to me if I don't acknowledge a man in my life as simply and directly as if it were a woman, and that is what I do. I'm not trying to dis you here, I hope you can hear that, our situations are different, I'm not a teacher, and I do sense how much teaching and working with children means to you. I'm a computer geek, and queer/poly folk are common and often visible. I hope this isn't prying, but I wonder also if you see one type of sex discrimination, in particular because, IME, people perceive an adult talking to a child vastly differently if the adult is a man than if it was a woman. I had a really great conversation at a recent party with a woman whose done research into gender roles and transfolk, and apparently this difference--that men are not allowed to talk to children by themselves, but women aren't, "because only men are molesters," [1] is apparently very commonly the most surprising costs of being male for FTM transsexuals. --Joe [1] Yes, yes, I know how false this statement is, but it is widely believed in the gestalt, if not in words, in my experience. From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sat Nov 18 06:36:04 2000 Received: from conway.liberate.com (conway.liberate.com [216.221.226.80]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA16013 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:36:04 -0800 Received: by conway.liberate.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 3C95235981; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:39:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by conway.liberate.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4EA8832881 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:39:36 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001118063116.00c19950@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 06:33:37 -0800 To: Bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] Re: Coming Out In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi! At 07:00 PM 11/17/00 -0800, Thomas Leavitt wrote: >just graduated high school two weeks before). This included crushes on >both genders, harassment and fights, etc. and a statistically high >percentage of queer people in significant roles in my life... I suspect a >lot of people recognized I was queer before I did. This was definitely true for me, although they got the details wrong, and I'm not sure their reasons for believing it were really indicative. >Anyway, I regard being bi (and poly) as a bonus, because I get to hang out >with all these cool, really interesting people. Definitely! --Joe From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sat Nov 18 11:29:22 2000 Received: from smtp02.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA16777 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:29:22 -0800 Received: (qmail 5773 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2000 19:28:50 -0000 Received: from 209-239-198-209.oak.jps.net (HELO ADSL.Pacbell.net) ([209.239.198.209]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.32 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Nov 2000 19:28:50 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001118112202.007ff510@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: thaddeus@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 11:22:02 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Thadd Liszkowski In-Reply-To: <200011172000.MAA11951@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Bigi] Coming Out Process 2: Junior High Reflecting back on my last post, I do seem to recall that puberty for me was actually in Catholic junior high school. Up until puberty, I had been a true believer, but when they told me that it was against god's will to masturbate, I realized that there must be something horribly wrong with the Catholic church :) I'm still trying to figure out how to be excommunicated: I figure I have sinned enough, having later overcompensated in true "recovering Catholic" style, so I think all I really need to do is write it all up in a letter to the Pope. My parents, being severe Catholics, did not display much affection, and certainly none of the sexual variety. This lack of role models combined with the laughable sexual code of a Catholic school upbringing left me on my own to chart a sexual identity. I was not allowed to date "until you're 18." I will not detail the repressive tactics of my parents, they are unremarkable in that they are so similar to many others raised Catholic I have spoken with. I was allowed to hang out unsupervised with my male friends, however, and once we tired of fantasizing about the girls in our class, I proposed on occasion to my best friend that we play strip poker, and "just pretend" that there were girls with us. Another time, I recall role-playing as a girl with another of my friends. I suppose that's when I realized that I was turned on much more by the physical availability of an actual naked boy than the mere fantasy of a girl, which was for me completely unattainable in psychological terms. This prejudice for actual physical contact over fantasy continues with me to this day. I am not into cyber-sex or porn much: I like to say that it's like talking about a cheeseburger or perhaps even watching someone else eat a cheeseburger, it just makes me hungry :) Unfortunately for me, I continued to be sexually represesd for a very long time. I never actually touched another person until the last two years of high school. On the plus side, however, having rejected the only model that I had (celibacy), this did give me ample opportunity to develop a philosophical basis for my sexual identity, instead of settling on a pattern of sexuality based on prevailing cultural norms or the caprice of supply and demand market availability and calling it my "natural" identity. Stay tuned for my next chapter, Coming Out Process 3: High School! From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sat Nov 18 13:04:08 2000 Received: from smtp05.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17180 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:04:08 -0800 Received: (qmail 23328 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2000 21:03:35 -0000 Received: from 209-239-198-209.oak.jps.net (HELO ADSL.Pacbell.net) ([209.239.198.209]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.35 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Nov 2000 21:03:35 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001118125650.007de750@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: thaddeus@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:56:50 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net, bigi@commonhouse.net From: Thadd Liszkowski In-Reply-To: <200011182000.MAA16993@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Bigi] Re: Bigi digest, Vol 1 #5 - 5 msgs >I'm not trying to dis you here, I hope you can hear that, >our situations are different, I'm not a teacher, and >I do sense how much teaching and working with children means to >you. I'm a computer geek, and queer/poly folk are common and often >visible. No offense taken. Yes, there has been the usual prying into my life. But what I see happening is that the even most of the cool people in education stop prying after they hear my views on marriage :) My reaction to queer slurs is enough for them to know it's the tip of an iceberg they'd rather not run into. >I hope this isn't prying, but I wonder also if you see one type of >sex discrimination, in particular because, IME, people perceive an >adult talking to a child vastly differently if the adult is a man than >if it was a woman. I had a really great conversation at a recent party >with a woman whose done research into gender roles and transfolk, and >apparently this difference--that men are not allowed to talk to children >by themselves, but women aren't, "because only men are molesters," [1] >is apparently very commonly the most surprising costs of being male for >FTM transsexuals. > >--Joe Ironically, in education we're trying so hard now to have tolerance for all the kids, including sexual identification, and it's one thing to be the queer club advisor, but quite another thing to be queer. You could get fired for *that!* "Isn't that a sex crime?" I would laugh if it didn't hurt so much. Also of note, we are taught in teacher school as a male teacher never to give a student a ride home, especially a girl, and never to be alone in a room with a student, especially a girl. Because, after all, "only girls get raped." [1] Not that I would rape anybody(!), but the idea that a male is not a sexual object is the just as pervasive flip side of the notion that a female is not a sexual agent (or subject). >[1] Yes, yes, I know how false this statement is, but it is >widely believed in the gestalt, if not in words, in my experience. Couldn't agree with you more. Thadd From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sat Nov 18 13:04:08 2000 Received: from smtp05.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA17181 for ; Sat, 18 Nov 2000 13:04:08 -0800 Received: (qmail 23328 invoked from network); 18 Nov 2000 21:03:35 -0000 Received: from 209-239-198-209.oak.jps.net (HELO ADSL.Pacbell.net) ([209.239.198.209]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.35 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 18 Nov 2000 21:03:35 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001118125650.007de750@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: thaddeus@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Sat, 18 Nov 2000 12:56:50 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net, bigi@commonhouse.net From: Thadd Liszkowski In-Reply-To: <200011182000.MAA16993@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Bigi] Re: Bigi digest, Vol 1 #5 - 5 msgs >I'm not trying to dis you here, I hope you can hear that, >our situations are different, I'm not a teacher, and >I do sense how much teaching and working with children means to >you. I'm a computer geek, and queer/poly folk are common and often >visible. No offense taken. Yes, there has been the usual prying into my life. But what I see happening is that the even most of the cool people in education stop prying after they hear my views on marriage :) My reaction to queer slurs is enough for them to know it's the tip of an iceberg they'd rather not run into. >I hope this isn't prying, but I wonder also if you see one type of >sex discrimination, in particular because, IME, people perceive an >adult talking to a child vastly differently if the adult is a man than >if it was a woman. I had a really great conversation at a recent party >with a woman whose done research into gender roles and transfolk, and >apparently this difference--that men are not allowed to talk to children >by themselves, but women aren't, "because only men are molesters," [1] >is apparently very commonly the most surprising costs of being male for >FTM transsexuals. > >--Joe Ironically, in education we're trying so hard now to have tolerance for all the kids, including sexual identification, and it's one thing to be the queer club advisor, but quite another thing to be queer. You could get fired for *that!* "Isn't that a sex crime?" I would laugh if it didn't hurt so much. Also of note, we are taught in teacher school as a male teacher never to give a student a ride home, especially a girl, and never to be alone in a room with a student, especially a girl. Because, after all, "only girls get raped." [1] Not that I would rape anybody(!), but the idea that a male is not a sexual object is the just as pervasive flip side of the notion that a female is not a sexual agent (or subject). >[1] Yes, yes, I know how false this statement is, but it is >widely believed in the gestalt, if not in words, in my experience. Couldn't agree with you more. Thadd From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 20 09:14:50 2000 Received: from conway.liberate.com (conway.liberate.com [216.221.226.80]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA31511 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:14:49 -0800 Received: by conway.liberate.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 904F935983; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:18:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by conway.liberate.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A839132882 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:18:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001120084247.00be9690@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 09:12:25 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] Re: Bigi digest, Vol 1 #5 - 5 msgs In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20001118125650.007de750@mail.jps.net> References: <200011182000.MAA16993@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 12:56 PM 11/18/00 -0800, Thadd Liszkowski wrote: >Ironically, in education we're trying so hard now to have tolerance for all >the kids, including sexual identification, and it's one thing to be the >queer club advisor, but quite another thing to be queer. You could get >fired for *that!* "Isn't that a sex crime?" I would laugh if it didn't hurt >so much. Your school has a 'queer club'? Wow. Was never like that I when I was a kid... :) >Also of note, we are taught in teacher school as a male teacher never to >give a student a ride home, especially a girl, and never to be alone in a >room with a student, especially a girl. Because, after all, "only girls get >raped." [1] Agreed, and while that situation is a lot more common, it makes it all the more difficult to find and to protect against cases of molestation by women and/or molestation of men, and I've known folks who fit all three of the and/or possibilities involved, "less common" of course doesn't mean "never happens". >Not that I would rape anybody(!), but the idea that a male is >not a sexual object is the just as pervasive flip side of the notion that a >female is not a sexual agent (or subject). Absolutely. I think to some extent there's cyclical feedback here, I think that societal expectations of male predation and female victimhood in some ways create the environment they expect, which in turn gets realized in studies and serves as further evidence for the expectation. Oh, I'm sure there's physiological effects as well, but in particular I see through my involvement with BAMM (which I won't digress into right now) that a many women are taught that they have no power to protect themselves, that they are helpless to contribute to their own safety. I think that the increased economic freedom and personal freedom women have won in the last couple decades is slowly ablating this meme, but it's still a long and difficult process. (Again, I'm speaking in generalizations here.) As a geek kid, I internalized a similar sense that I was incapable of defending myself. Bits of that occasionally still affect me today, sometimes when I'm "out" with a guy in public. While this is a small effect and only an occasional one, it's not particularly one I want to live with, and I'm doing a few things to address. --Joe Joe Decker (joe@bi.org, jdecker@liberate.com, joe@polychromatic.com) http://www.polychromatic.com/bigi/ -- BiGi: A Bi Men's Community http://www.polychromatic.com/ -- poly-related book reviews http://alumni.caltech.edu/~decker/ -- home page (PS: Welcome to our several new list members! We're still ramping up here, feel free to pass on information about the list to friends, other lists, groups, etc. Also, feel free to introduce yourselves, even if just to say "Hi!") > >[1] Yes, yes, I know how false this statement is, but it is > >widely believed in the gestalt, if not in words, in my experience. > >Couldn't agree with you more. From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 20 15:22:37 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f122.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.122]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00663 for ; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:22:37 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:22:15 -0800 Received: from 64.209.173.120 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 20 Nov 2000 23:22:15 GMT X-Originating-IP: [64.209.173.120] From: "Thomas Leavitt" To: Bigi@commonhouse.net Date: Mon, 20 Nov 2000 15:22:15 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 Nov 2000 23:22:15.0923 (UTC) FILETIME=[B82F4430:01C05348] Subject: [Bigi] Coming out... continued. Hmm... my parents initial reaction was, "geez, our our bi friends have had such traumatic lives [based on '70s era experiences] because they were torn between two worlds... it would be better for you if you picked one or the other." I think a lot of people deal with my bi-sexuality by simply ignoring the non-hetero aspects of my life... --Thomas _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Wed Nov 22 14:29:02 2000 Received: from cliff.liberate.com (pix214.liberate.com [216.221.224.214]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA11281 for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:29:02 -0800 Received: from vindaloo (vindaloo.liberate.com [172.22.4.108]) by cliff.liberate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8336634259 for ; Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:28:52 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001122142849.00d73bc0@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Wed, 22 Nov 2000 14:29:43 -0800 To: Bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] Coming out... continued. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 03:22 PM 11/20/00 -0800, Thomas Leavitt wrote: >I think a lot of people deal with my bi-sexuality by simply ignoring the >non-hetero aspects of my life... I guess I'm really pleased at how many people just accept it at face value. But then I do tend to choose, to some extent, the folks that I spend time hanging around. --Joe From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sat Nov 25 19:02:16 2000 Received: from mail.fastpointcom.com (mail.fastpointcom.com [216.200.163.130]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA21740 for ; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:02:16 -0800 Received: from RYANG.fastpointmail.com [209.249.29.92] by mail.fastpointcom.com with ESMTP (SMTPD32-5.00) id AD05FCD01AC; Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:01:25 0800 Message-Id: <4.3.2.7.2.20001125184941.027c0008@pop.earthlink.net> X-Sender: rhyang@fastpointmail.com@mail.fastpointcom.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.2 Date: Sat, 25 Nov 2000 19:03:58 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: "Robert H. Yang" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Subject: [Bigi] BiHike expands scope Hi Folks, The BiHike list is alive and well, despite reports to the contrary. We're planning a Tahoe trip this February, and just hiked in the stunning and rugged Ohlone Wilderness. We would also like to expand the scope of the list to include other outdoor activities, such as camping, cycling, and skiing. Volunteers are needed to help plan, organize, and host activities. The bisexual community needs you ! Please feel free to check out the following link to subscribe : http://www.egroups.com/subscribe/BiHike -Rob BiHike listowner From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sun Nov 26 11:13:04 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f247.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.149.247]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA30004 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:13:04 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 11:12:34 -0800 Received: from 208.242.124.122 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 19:12:34 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.242.124.122] From: "Tony Moulton" To: bigi@commonhouse.net Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:12:34 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Nov 2000 19:12:34.0442 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5012EA0:01C057DC] Subject: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man Would love to chat with other biguys. I live in Vermont and have a boyfriend whom I love, but is far more attracted to guys on far less to women. The few bisexual men I've met tend to follow the philosophy that we cannot be monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a fallacy. Am I alone in that belief? I am out to my friends and family. But they can barely comprehend and accept that Im dating a guy, let alone that I am attracted to both genders. Dont get me wrong, they are very supportive and loving, I just crave conversation and connection with other like-minded men. Drop me a line and if you're in the vicinity maybe we can meet and chat (purely conversation/friendship, I am very happy in my current relationship:)) -Tony:) _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sun Nov 26 12:41:58 2000 Received: from lolita.speakeasy.net (lolita.speakeasy.net [216.254.0.13]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA30414 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:41:58 -0800 Received: (qmail 13889 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2000 20:37:37 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO gonzo.speakeasy.net) (192.168.0.5) by 192.168.0.13 with SMTP; 26 Nov 2000 20:37:37 -0000 Received: (qmail 7978 invoked from network); 26 Nov 2000 20:41:56 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO bisexualadventures.com) (64.81.50.78) by gonzo.speakeasy.net with SMTP; 26 Nov 2000 20:41:56 -0000 Message-ID: <3A21758C.D6D29C57@bisexualadventures.com> Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 12:41:48 -0800 From: Joe X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.73 [en] (WinNT; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man References: <200011262000.MAA30188@commonhouse.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > The few > bisexual men I've met tend to follow the philosophy that we cannot be > monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a fallacy. Am I alone in that > belief? Cannot be monogamous or prefer not to be monogamous? I've met more of the latter than the former. > ---------------- Be A Bisexual Adventurer http://www.bisexualadventures.com From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Sun Nov 26 13:59:48 2000 Received: from conway.liberate.com (conway.liberate.com [216.221.226.80]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA30757 for ; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:59:48 -0800 Received: by conway.liberate.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 885C735981; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:03:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by conway.liberate.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8484F32881; Sun, 26 Nov 2000 14:03:18 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001126134035.00a7a7e0@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Sun, 26 Nov 2000 13:57:26 -0800 To: "Tony Moulton" From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man Cc: bigi@commonhouse.net In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi Tony! At 02:12 PM 11/26/00 -0500, Tony Moulton wrote: >Would love to chat with other biguys. I live in Vermont and have a >boyfriend whom I love, but is far more attracted to guys on far less to >women. The few bisexual men I've met tend to follow the philosophy that we >cannot be monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a fallacy. Am I alone >in that belief? You are not alone. Now, my credentials for agreeing with you might be a little suspect (I'm not monogamous myself), but I know a number of monogamous bisexual men, and most of them are quite happy folk, monogamous by choice, by preference. Moreover, I was a monogamous bisexual man for many years. My wife and I were involved for nearly fifteen years, ten married, when we started heading away from monogamy, and that process really wasn't that related to my bisexuality, although it did open up some avenues for exploration that I've been grateful for. (We're still happily married, just no longer monogamous.) >I am out to my friends and family. But they can barely comprehend and >accept that Im dating a guy, let alone that I am attracted to both genders. Although I don't run into it very often (I hang out in a lot of bi or bi-friendly spaces), I'm still always amazed that some people can't "comprehend" bisexuality. It doesn't seem like that hard of a concept to grasp to me, and yet it seems very difficult and confusing for some folk. Cheers, --Joe From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 04:04:36 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f222.hotmail.com [209.185.130.160]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id EAA32727 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 04:04:35 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 04:04:04 -0800 Received: from 63.27.139.179 by lw1fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:04:04 GMT X-Originating-IP: [63.27.139.179] From: "Bill L" To: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:04:04 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Nov 2000 12:04:04.0578 (UTC) FILETIME=[23250420:01C0586A] Hi Guys! I'm a married bisexual guy, out to my wife and some friends, and monogamous by choice - no coercion involved. I tend to think that the choice about whether or not to be monogamous really has little to do with sexual orientation...although there are certainly those who disagree with me. I'm sexually fulfilled with my wife and figure I could feel the same way with a man as well. I just don't think I need (and at this point in time don't want either) two or more sex partners. Hugs, Bill > >Hi Tony! > >At 02:12 PM 11/26/00 -0500, Tony Moulton wrote: >>Would love to chat with other biguys. I live in Vermont and have a >>boyfriend whom I love, but is far more attracted to guys on far less to >>women. The few bisexual men I've met tend to follow the philosophy that we >>cannot be monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a fallacy. Am I alone >>in that belief? > >You are not alone. Now, my credentials for agreeing with you >might be a little suspect (I'm not monogamous myself), but I know >a number of monogamous bisexual men, and most of them are quite >happy folk, monogamous by choice, by preference. > >Moreover, I was a monogamous bisexual man for many years. My wife >and I were involved for nearly fifteen years, ten married, when >we started heading away from monogamy, and that process really wasn't >that related to my bisexuality, although it did open up some avenues >for exploration that I've been grateful for. (We're still happily >married, just no longer monogamous.) > >>I am out to my friends and family. But they can barely comprehend and >>accept that Im dating a guy, let alone that I am attracted to both >>genders. > >Although I don't run into it very often (I hang out in a lot of >bi or bi-friendly spaces), I'm still always amazed that >some people can't "comprehend" bisexuality. It doesn't seem like >that hard of a concept to grasp to me, and yet it seems very >difficult and confusing for some folk. > >Cheers, > >--Joe > > >_______________________________________________ >Bigi mailing list >Bigi@commonhouse.net >http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 06:13:01 2000 Received: from web108.yahoomail.com (web108.mail.yahoo.com [205.180.60.75]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA00504 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:13:01 -0800 Received: (qmail 7772 invoked by uid 60001); 27 Nov 2000 14:13:00 -0000 Message-ID: <20001127141300.7771.qmail@web108.yahoomail.com> Received: from [143.183.152.17] by web108.yahoomail.com; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:13:00 PST Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:13:00 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man To: bigi@commonhouse.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi folks, Tony, Let's work on the term momogamy. When you say you are sexually monogamous does that mean yo only have sex with your signifigant other and no one else or do you mean that you're married and only have opposite sex with your wife but have a boyfriend on the side? My definition of monogamy, and I'm definitely not, is someone who has sex with just one person. Can you be bi and monogamous. Sure, I know a couple of guys who have been serially monogamous and bi. Over the course of a few years they have had both male and female partners, but never more than one at a time. Alan in that you --- Bill L wrote: > > Hi Guys! > > I'm a married bisexual guy, out to my wife and some friends, > and monogamous > by choice - no coercion involved. I tend to think that the > choice about > whether or not to be monogamous really has little to do with > sexual > orientation...although there are certainly those who disagree > with me. > > I'm sexually fulfilled with my wife and figure I could feel > the same way > with a man as well. I just don't think I need (and at this > point in time > don't want either) two or more sex partners. > > Hugs, > > Bill > > > > >Hi Tony! > > > >At 02:12 PM 11/26/00 -0500, Tony Moulton wrote: > >>Would love to chat with other biguys. I live in Vermont and > have a > >>boyfriend whom I love, but is far more attracted to guys on > far less to > >>women. The few bisexual men I've met tend to follow the > philosophy that we > >>cannot be monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a > fallacy. Am I alone > >>in that belief? > > > >You are not alone. Now, my credentials for agreeing with you > >might be a little suspect (I'm not monogamous myself), but I > know > >a number of monogamous bisexual men, and most of them are > quite > >happy folk, monogamous by choice, by preference. > > > >Moreover, I was a monogamous bisexual man for many years. My > wife > >and I were involved for nearly fifteen years, ten married, > when > >we started heading away from monogamy, and that process > really wasn't > >that related to my bisexuality, although it did open up some > avenues > >for exploration that I've been grateful for. (We're still > happily > >married, just no longer monogamous.) > > > >>I am out to my friends and family. But they can barely > comprehend and > >>accept that Im dating a guy, let alone that I am attracted > to both > >>genders. > > > >Although I don't run into it very often (I hang out in a lot > of > >bi or bi-friendly spaces), I'm still always amazed that > >some people can't "comprehend" bisexuality. It doesn't seem > like > >that hard of a concept to grasp to me, and yet it seems very > >difficult and confusing for some folk. > > > >Cheers, > > > >--Joe > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Bigi mailing list > >Bigi@commonhouse.net > >http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Bigi mailing list > Bigi@commonhouse.net > http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 08:07:21 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f123.hotmail.com [209.185.131.186]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA00884 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:07:21 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:06:49 -0800 Received: from 206.25.123.220 by lw1fd.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:06:49 GMT X-Originating-IP: [206.25.123.220] From: "Bill L" To: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man - Definition Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 16:06:49 -0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Nov 2000 16:06:49.0662 (UTC) FILETIME=[0C9C75E0:01C0588C] Good point Alan - which is why my wife prefers to use the term "sexually exclusive relationship" because she feels it is more precise than monogamous. Bill >From: Alan >To: bigi@commonhouse.net >Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:13:00 -0800 (PST) > >Hi folks, Tony, > >Let's work on the term momogamy. When you say you are sexually >monogamous does that mean yo only have sex with your signifigant >other and no one else or do you mean that you're married and >only have opposite sex with your wife but have a boyfriend on >the side? > >My definition of monogamy, and I'm definitely not, is someone >who has sex with just one person. > >Can you be bi and monogamous. Sure, I know a couple of guys who >have been serially monogamous and bi. Over the course of a few >years they have had both male and female partners, but never >more than one at a time. > >Alan > > in that you >--- Bill L wrote: > > > > Hi Guys! > > > > I'm a married bisexual guy, out to my wife and some friends, > > and monogamous > > by choice - no coercion involved. I tend to think that the > > choice about > > whether or not to be monogamous really has little to do with > > sexual > > orientation...although there are certainly those who disagree > > with me. > > > > I'm sexually fulfilled with my wife and figure I could feel > > the same way > > with a man as well. I just don't think I need (and at this > > point in time > > don't want either) two or more sex partners. > > > > Hugs, > > > > Bill > > > > > > > >Hi Tony! > > > > > >At 02:12 PM 11/26/00 -0500, Tony Moulton wrote: > > >>Would love to chat with other biguys. I live in Vermont and > > have a > > >>boyfriend whom I love, but is far more attracted to guys on > > far less to > > >>women. The few bisexual men I've met tend to follow the > > philosophy that we > > >>cannot be monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a > > fallacy. Am I alone > > >>in that belief? > > > > > >You are not alone. Now, my credentials for agreeing with you > > >might be a little suspect (I'm not monogamous myself), but I > > know > > >a number of monogamous bisexual men, and most of them are > > quite > > >happy folk, monogamous by choice, by preference. > > > > > >Moreover, I was a monogamous bisexual man for many years. My > > wife > > >and I were involved for nearly fifteen years, ten married, > > when > > >we started heading away from monogamy, and that process > > really wasn't > > >that related to my bisexuality, although it did open up some > > avenues > > >for exploration that I've been grateful for. (We're still > > happily > > >married, just no longer monogamous.) > > > > > >>I am out to my friends and family. But they can barely > > comprehend and > > >>accept that Im dating a guy, let alone that I am attracted > > to both > > >>genders. > > > > > >Although I don't run into it very often (I hang out in a lot > > of > > >bi or bi-friendly spaces), I'm still always amazed that > > >some people can't "comprehend" bisexuality. It doesn't seem > > like > > >that hard of a concept to grasp to me, and yet it seems very > > >difficult and confusing for some folk. > > > > > >Cheers, > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > >Bigi mailing list > > >Bigi@commonhouse.net > > >http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > > > > >_____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Bigi mailing list > > Bigi@commonhouse.net > > http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > > >__________________________________________________ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >Bigi mailing list >Bigi@commonhouse.net >http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 08:20:21 2000 Received: from elmer.extranetsolutions.net (c11191386.tmgcc.csc.com [63.96.11.20] (may be forged)) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA00958 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:20:20 -0800 Received: from 10.100.20.20 by elmer.extranetsolutions.net (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:04:03 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Received: by ACME with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4R17M144>; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:09:33 -0600 Message-ID: From: Christopher Gerkey To: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: RE: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man - Definition Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 10:09:33 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" My SO and I use "duogamous" to describe ourselves. We're with each other, plus I am with one man and she's with one woman. Hi, by the way. I'm Topher - joined up last week but hadn't gotten around to posting yet. I'm 30, from Chicago, and manage online communities for a living. I'm out to my friends, family, co-workers, classmates - well, everybody except my delicate old grandparents, basically. Let's see, what else. I'm Wiccan. And a Capoerista. I think that's about all the interesting stuff about me. Oh, and I'm non-monogamous by choice, not by programming. ^_^ Topher > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill L [mailto:tklwrite@hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, November 27, 2000 10:07 AM > To: bigi@commonhouse.net > Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man - Definition > > > Good point Alan - which is why my wife prefers to use the > term "sexually > exclusive relationship" because she feels it is more precise than > monogamous. > > Bill > > > >From: Alan > >To: bigi@commonhouse.net > >Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man > >Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 06:13:00 -0800 (PST) > > > >Hi folks, Tony, > > > >Let's work on the term momogamy. When you say you are sexually > >monogamous does that mean yo only have sex with your signifigant > >other and no one else or do you mean that you're married and > >only have opposite sex with your wife but have a boyfriend on > >the side? > > > >My definition of monogamy, and I'm definitely not, is someone > >who has sex with just one person. > > > >Can you be bi and monogamous. Sure, I know a couple of guys who > >have been serially monogamous and bi. Over the course of a few > >years they have had both male and female partners, but never > >more than one at a time. > > > >Alan > > > > in that you > >--- Bill L wrote: > > > > > > Hi Guys! > > > > > > I'm a married bisexual guy, out to my wife and some friends, > > > and monogamous > > > by choice - no coercion involved. I tend to think that the > > > choice about > > > whether or not to be monogamous really has little to do with > > > sexual > > > orientation...although there are certainly those who disagree > > > with me. > > > > > > I'm sexually fulfilled with my wife and figure I could feel > > > the same way > > > with a man as well. I just don't think I need (and at this > > > point in time > > > don't want either) two or more sex partners. > > > > > > Hugs, > > > > > > Bill > > > > > > > > > > >Hi Tony! > > > > > > > >At 02:12 PM 11/26/00 -0500, Tony Moulton wrote: > > > >>Would love to chat with other biguys. I live in Vermont and > > > have a > > > >>boyfriend whom I love, but is far more attracted to guys on > > > far less to > > > >>women. The few bisexual men I've met tend to follow the > > > philosophy that we > > > >>cannot be monogamous and bisexual. I think that is a > > > fallacy. Am I alone > > > >>in that belief? > > > > > > > >You are not alone. Now, my credentials for agreeing with you > > > >might be a little suspect (I'm not monogamous myself), but I > > > know > > > >a number of monogamous bisexual men, and most of them are > > > quite > > > >happy folk, monogamous by choice, by preference. > > > > > > > >Moreover, I was a monogamous bisexual man for many years. My > > > wife > > > >and I were involved for nearly fifteen years, ten married, > > > when > > > >we started heading away from monogamy, and that process > > > really wasn't > > > >that related to my bisexuality, although it did open up some > > > avenues > > > >for exploration that I've been grateful for. (We're still > > > happily > > > >married, just no longer monogamous.) > > > > > > > >>I am out to my friends and family. But they can barely > > > comprehend and > > > >>accept that Im dating a guy, let alone that I am attracted > > > to both > > > >>genders. > > > > > > > >Although I don't run into it very often (I hang out in a lot > > > of > > > >bi or bi-friendly spaces), I'm still always amazed that > > > >some people can't "comprehend" bisexuality. It doesn't seem > > > like > > > >that hard of a concept to grasp to me, and yet it seems very > > > >difficult and confusing for some folk. > > > > > > > >Cheers, > > > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > > >Bigi mailing list > > > >Bigi@commonhouse.net > > > >http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > > > > > > > >_____________________________________________________________ > ________________________ > > > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > > > http://explorer.msn.com > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Bigi mailing list > > > Bigi@commonhouse.net > > > http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > > > > > >__________________________________________________ > >Do You Yahoo!? > >Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. > >http://shopping.yahoo.com/ > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Bigi mailing list > >Bigi@commonhouse.net > >http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi > > ______________________________________________________________ > _______________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com _______________________________________________ Bigi mailing list Bigi@commonhouse.net http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 08:57:35 2000 Received: from conway.liberate.com (conway.liberate.com [216.221.226.80]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA01075 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:57:35 -0800 Received: by conway.liberate.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 2B80235982; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:01:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from yomama (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by conway.liberate.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6C52C32881 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:01:05 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001127085423.0819b2f0@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: jdecker@usscmail1.liberate.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 08:55:14 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: RE: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man - Definition In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 10:09 AM 11/27/00 -0600, Christopher Gerkey wrote: >basically. Let's see, what else. I'm Wiccan. And a Capoerista. Okay, I have to ask. :) Capoerista? --Joe From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 09:52:25 2000 Received: from elmer.extranetsolutions.net (c11191386.tmgcc.csc.com [63.96.11.20] (may be forged)) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id JAA01263 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 09:52:25 -0800 Received: from 10.100.20.20 by elmer.extranetsolutions.net (InterScan E-Mail VirusWall NT); Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:36:15 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Received: by ACME with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <4R17MFHQ>; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:41:44 -0600 Message-ID: From: Christopher Gerkey To: bigi@commonhouse.net Subject: RE: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man - Definition Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 11:41:36 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > From: Joe Decker [mailto:jdecker@liberate.com] > >basically. Let's see, what else. I'm Wiccan. And a Capoerista. > > Okay, I have to ask. :) Capoerista? Someone who does Capoeira, of course. ^_^ Capoeira is an Afro-Brazilian martial art. It combines music, dance, acrobatics, and self-defense. Topher From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 12:22:35 2000 Received: from ursa-major.spdcc.com (alan@URSA-MAJOR.SPDCC.COM [140.186.80.3]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA02129 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 12:22:34 -0800 Received: from alan@localhost (HELO localhost) by ursa-major.spdcc.com (8.9.1a/8.9.1) via SMTP id for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:22:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 15:22:29 -0500 (EST) From: Alan Hamilton X-Sender: alan@ursa-major To: bigi@commonhouse.net In-Reply-To: <200011272000.MAA02020@commonhouse.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Subject: [Bigi] Intro - Alan Hamilton Hi, Folks! I'm 46 until Friday. I'm bi and poly, partnered with a woman (for 20 years) and two men (for 14 and 3 years). I'm out to some extent (depending on how interested they are in knowing details) to my family, co-workers, and friends. I'm a bi activist in Boston, Massachusetts, USA, and a member of the board of the Bisexual Resource Center. (see www.biresource.org) Just a reminder, folks! Everyone has already gotten a full copy of each message to which we're responding. Please delete all of the message to which you're responding, except possibly for a brief quote to which you're responding directly. Thanks! -Alan (replace ".com" with ".net" if spam filter causes bounces) From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Mon Nov 27 17:59:02 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f273.law4.hotmail.com [216.33.148.151]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA03509 for ; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:59:02 -0800 Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 27 Nov 2000 17:58:31 -0800 Received: from 208.242.124.67 by lw4fd.law4.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 01:58:31 GMT X-Originating-IP: [208.242.124.67] From: "Tony Moulton" To: bigi@commonhouse.net Date: Mon, 27 Nov 2000 20:58:31 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Message-ID: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Nov 2000 01:58:31.0690 (UTC) FILETIME=[B57806A0:01C058DE] Subject: [Bigi] Monogamy or sexual exclusivity Hey everyone, thanks for the great input and conversation:) Thanks to bill and alan for giving me new perspectives on the term monogamy. I think my beau and I are sexually exclusive, however we recently had a 3 some. It had been a mutual fantasy and we discussed it on and off for months to make sure it felt right, set up boundaries, make sure we were both comfortable and it was great, if anything it may have strengthened our relationship. So maybe I am... sexually exclusive in a one on one situation, but as a couple enjoy eyecandy and 3 or 4 somes (with the right guys and of course safely;) And thank you to Joe for the great email, good to know I'm not alone, Vermont is a great state, however you really have to search for gay/bi socialization. Maybe its the deep winters that cause the hermit complex LOL. Topher, I am wiccan too. I know this is a different subject, but would enjoy hearing more about how long, how you came to it, some of your specific beliefs, etc. I've noticed many wiccans are gay/bi and many gay/bi folk are wiccan. Interesting. Take care all and Carpe Diem:) -Tony _____________________________________________________________________________________ Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Tue Nov 28 06:14:12 2000 Received: from web122.yahoomail.com (web122.mail.yahoo.com [205.180.60.57]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA05192 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:14:12 -0800 Received: (qmail 11891 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2000 14:14:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20001128141411.11890.qmail@web122.yahoomail.com> Received: from [143.183.152.10] by web122.yahoomail.com; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:14:11 PST Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 06:14:11 -0800 (PST) From: Alan Subject: Re: [Bigi] Monogamy or sexual exclusivity To: bigi@commonhouse.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Tony, all, The real deal is that if you have a primary partner you must communicate and discuss what your limits between you are. I played the don't ask don't tell game for years and it almost cost my relationship. I'm just as much a slut as very but now in the open and honest and truthful and rather than my wife feling pain and abandenment she gets off knowing I'm getting off. She knows I still love her and want her as my partner but that I'm a slut who loves to fuck and have fun. When she can join in great and that's most of the time, but if she can't... Actually coming out to her as a slut allowed her to join me in my play and that even better. There is a great book about how to have an open and honest relationship. The Ethical Slut. It was great for us in a strong primary life long relationship to see that the honest and open and communcation based relationship can and has worked. Alan --- Tony Moulton wrote: > Hey everyone, thanks for the great input and conversation:) > Thanks to bill > and alan for giving me new perspectives on the term monogamy. > I think my > beau and I are sexually exclusive, however we recently had a 3 > some. It had > been a mutual fantasy and we discussed it on and off for > months to make sure > it felt right, set up boundaries, make sure we were both > comfortable and it > was great, if anything it may have strengthened our > relationship. So maybe I > am... sexually exclusive in a one on one situation, but as a > couple enjoy > eyecandy and 3 or 4 somes (with the right guys and of course > safely;) > And thank you to Joe for the great email, good to know I'm not > alone, > Vermont is a great state, however you really have to search > for gay/bi > socialization. Maybe its the deep winters that cause the > hermit complex LOL. > Topher, I am wiccan too. I know this is a different subject, > but would enjoy > hearing more about how long, how you came to it, some of your > specific > beliefs, etc. I've noticed many wiccans are gay/bi and many > gay/bi folk are > wiccan. Interesting. > Take care all and Carpe Diem:) > -Tony > _____________________________________________________________________________________ > Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : > http://explorer.msn.com > > > _______________________________________________ > Bigi mailing list > Bigi@commonhouse.net > http://www.commonhouse.net/mailman/listinfo/bigi __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Tue Nov 28 14:08:33 2000 Received: from web1704.mail.yahoo.com (web1704.mail.yahoo.com [128.11.23.215]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07296 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:08:33 -0800 Received: (qmail 7702 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Nov 2000 22:08:27 -0000 Message-ID: <20001128220827.7701.qmail@web1704.mail.yahoo.com> Received: from [63.236.58.36] by web1704.mail.yahoo.com; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:08:27 PST Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:08:27 -0800 (PST) From: Mano Marks Reply-To: ccvolunteer@yahoo.com To: Bigi@commonhouse.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Subject: [Bigi] Mano Hi, just wanted to intro myself. I'm Mano. I'm 31, a bear, and I live in the San Francisco Bay Area with my female partner of almost 5 years (wow!). We have a small place in Albany. I'm a former Queer community activist, a Quaker, and a geek. I don't consider myself an activist anymore because I'm not doing anything actively, though I still of course support all the cool lefty causes. My partner and I are non-monogamous. We prefer that term, though we've never had a deep discusion about terminalogy so I can only say why I prefer it. I prefer it because she and I are not always with someone else, and polyamorous seems to imply to me that you are involved with multiple people at the same time. We just have the option. We always maintain our primary romantic relationships with each other. I have a boyfriend of almost 2 years, and she occasionally has other partners or flings. I know some people restrict themselves to only playing with someone of a different gender than their partner, but we don't make that restriction. It just seems to have mostly happened that way. It's funny, but I just realized that most of the people I hang out with are in a similar kind of relationship, though through work and some extended community I know, of course, people who are both poly and monogamous. BTW, I'm not trying to start a war over word usage. Just adding perspective on why I use monogamous. Any other Quakers out there? I am going to be reading from my piece Shadows in the Mirror, published in the anthology Male Lust, as part of a group of authors tonight at Cody's in Berkeley (the Telegraph one) It starts at 8:00. If anyone wants to come, you are welcome. My piece is about sexuality as a sexual abuse survivor. Many of the pieces are intense and/or erotic. Please be aware of that before you get there. Hope to see you there! __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/ From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Tue Nov 28 14:24:12 2000 Received: from slkcpop3.slkc.uswest.net (mail.slkc.uswest.net [206.81.128.3]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07236 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:04:49 -0800 Received: (qmail 22024 invoked by alias); 28 Nov 2000 22:03:58 -0000 Delivered-To: fixup-bigi@commonhouse.net@fixme Received: (qmail 21680 invoked by uid 0); 28 Nov 2000 22:03:48 -0000 Received: from aidialup92.slkc.uswest.net (HELO 12472) (63.224.110.92) by mail.slkc.uswest.net with SMTP; 28 Nov 2000 22:03:48 -0000 Message-ID: <015101c05987$00c8f1c0$1b7dfea9@uswest.net> From: "Jason Moore" To: References: Subject: Re: [Bigi] The monogamous bisexual man Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 14:35:30 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.50.4133.2400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.50.4133.2400 Hello Everyone, I'm new to the list and have been lurking for the last little while to learn more about you and the list. I like what I see, thank you for being there. About me: Age: 53 6'4", 215 lbs. Divorced Blind In spite of being blind, I have been teaching and studying the martial arts for the 32 years. Live in Utah, not a Mormon :) I have been "bi" for as long as I can remember and that's a long time. I am not out to anyone, still feeling very insecure about how it would be received here in this state. I am looking for a sense of community with you and a safe place to be. I hope to hear from you and private email is welcome Light and Life, Jason From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Tue Nov 28 17:34:12 2000 Received: from cliff.liberate.com (pix237.liberate.com [216.221.224.237]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA08130 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:34:04 -0800 Received: from vindaloo (vindaloo.liberate.com [172.22.4.108]) by cliff.liberate.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2233734265 for ; Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:34:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <4.2.2.20001128173353.00da3a80@usscmail1.liberate.com> X-Sender: (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.2 Date: Tue, 28 Nov 2000 17:34:44 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Joe Decker Subject: Re: [Bigi] Monogamy or sexual exclusivity In-Reply-To: <20001128141411.11890.qmail@web122.yahoomail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 06:14 AM 11/28/00 -0800, Alan wrote: >There is a great book about how to have an open and honest >relationship. The Ethical Slut. It was great for us in a strong >primary life long relationship to see that the honest and open >and communcation based relationship can and has worked. I really love that book as well, it's always been my first recommendation on communication and non-monogamous relationships. --Joe From bigi-admin@commonhouse.net Wed Nov 29 16:48:05 2000 Received: from smtp06.mail.onemain.com (SMTP-OUT003.ONEMAIN.COM [63.208.208.73]) by commonhouse.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA12226 for ; Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:48:04 -0800 Received: (qmail 5455 invoked from network); 30 Nov 2000 00:47:25 -0000 Received: from 209-239-204-18.oak.jps.net (HELO ADSL.Pacbell.net) ([209.239.204.18]) (envelope-sender ) by 10.209.20.36 (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for ; 30 Nov 2000 00:47:25 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20001129164012.00800e70@mail.jps.net> X-Sender: thaddeus@mail.jps.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 29 Nov 2000 16:40:12 -0800 To: bigi@commonhouse.net From: Thadd Liszkowski In-Reply-To: <200011292000.MAA11176@commonhouse.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Subject: [Bigi] Ethical Slut Yes, the sexual compatibility questionnaire in the Ethical Slut is a great idea that my partner and I have incorporated into our "interviewing process" for potential lovers. A quick and honest laying of cards on the table regarding sexual fantasies, capacities, and boundaries has helped us avoid some of the awkward things that can happen when one jumps into bed too haphazardly :) Thadd At 06:14 AM 11/28/00 -0800, Alan wrote: >There is a great book about how to have an open and honest >relationship. The Ethical Slut. It was great for us in a strong >primary life long relationship to see that the honest and open >and communcation based relationship can and has worked. I really love that book as well, it's always been my first recommendation on communication and non-monogamous relationships. --Joe